Dr. Scott Jensen, MD: How The CDC’s Guidelines For Certifying Coronavirus Deaths Could Be Misleading The Public

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senator Scott Jenson who’s also an MD a
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family physician and we’re going to him
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because he’s raised his hand about some
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of the ways in which were measuring
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deaths with coated night team that are
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upsetting them because they’re not based
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on science and so it’ll be really
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important hear from him and what he has
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to share with us dr. Jensen first of all
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thank you for joining us I want to reach
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out to you because I watched several
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programs where you raised the Bell about
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concerns that there’s this race to try
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and get the highest numbers possible
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through coab in nineteen and that it’s
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actually being incentivized by Medicare
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and the government can you share with
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people what your concern is and why you
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come forward well I tend to be a skeptic
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and I think it was April 3rd I received
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a communication from the state
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department of health and in that we were
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basically being advised as physicians as
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to how to correctly complete a death
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certificate if covin 19 was involved
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directly or perhaps even presumptively
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you probably are peripherally involved
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in when I read the document I saw that
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there was a link for further information
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through the CDC so I went there I just
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shook my head said no this is wrong
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and so I raised it raised up the
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flagpole if you will and I reached out
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to 50 to 75 physicians that I’m in
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fairly close contact with him I’m no
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spring chicken so I mean I’ve been doing
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just entities for some time and I’ve
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never been coached or massaged in this
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way so that was really what massage to
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do what to put down kovin 19 I was
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coached and massage to utilize koban 19
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as a factor in the causation of death
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even if I hadn’t checked at coba 19
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tests even if I hadn’t had an interest
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in one and right around that time dr.
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Burks from Washington DC was saying that
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nobody’s going to die with koban 19 if
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they haven’t they’re dying of it and
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that was about a silly a thing as I had
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heard because if a person gets hit by a
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bus and over the first two hours of
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examination in an emergency room we
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learned that both of their lungs are
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collapsed but also some baseline
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laboratory works drew addressed the fact
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that there was a low hemoglobin but also
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a coma 19 tests happened to be positive
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in the piece
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see our form of it it would be
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absolutely ridiculous to put down Cove
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in nineteen the patient died of bus
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accident with both lungs being collapsed
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in a similar fashion if I’ve got a
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patient who is in Hospice and they’ve
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indicated that they’re not interested in
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aggressive measures they want to have
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supportive comfort care and they want
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their dignity to be respected and
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they’ve got end-stage emphysema
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congestive heart failure syndrome as
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well and a week before they pass then
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them somehow getting exposed to someone
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who has carbon 19 who later on ends up
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being diagnosed with Koba 19 the
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underlying cause of death is end-stage
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emphysema and congestive heart failure
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it is not Koba 19 if I’m going to put
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Koba 19 as a factor in that causation
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sequence then it should be linked beat
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above 1 and below another but it
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certainly wouldn’t be the underlying
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cause of death which really is the
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all-important thing that we put on a
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certificate it’s interesting because
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what I was doing to research originally
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I remember in late February I was
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watching every day because I’m concerned
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that the death rate shot at six hundred
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percent and one day and I’m no
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epidemiologist but that didn’t make any
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sense I’ve talked about the world death
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rate and then I dug in and finally found
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little Astrakhan said they changed the
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diagnostic procedure to no longer having
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to do a test this is his latest February
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and that that’s why the number of deaths
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shot through the roof because anything
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they suspected is encoded they listed it
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go but and then a few weeks ago I know
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you know in the CDC made it formal in
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the US that you don’t need to do a test
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just that you suspected but there’s
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actually even as I understand from you
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economic incentives by the hospitals and
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some have been reclassified as probably
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19 deaths after the fact and what is
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that a financial incentive that you’ll
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share with us well I have a background
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in coding and so I’ve been asked to give
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lectures around the country at different
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time so coding is something that’s near
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and dear to me so when I started seeing
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some of the massaging going on I thought
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okay we need to do a little research so
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I made some calls to hospital
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administrators when on websites check
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out CMS or Medicare’s information and
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what I learned was that a DRG or a
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diagnosis related group admission to the
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hospital for a Medicare patient or
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Tiffin
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when you would get paid somewhere on
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$4,600 but if it was put down as koban
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nineteen pneumonia it would be $13,000
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and if a ventilator happened to be used
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it would be thirty nine thousand dollars
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I also knew that some hospital
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administrators knew but may not want to
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confess in public that their hospital
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was small enough that they probably
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would not receive the benefits of some
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of those if you will inflated payments
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and so from that perspective I started
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to do more digging and what I learned
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was that this was indeed the case that
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koban 19 had been incentivized and when
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I put that out on social media I mean
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frankly all heck broke loose people
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started to call me a conspiracy theorist
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and it was just astonishing and people
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didn’t seem interested in facts so at
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that point in time I really took it on
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as a mission of mine that I was gonna
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try to be about facts I was gonna try to
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be transparent and I was going to try to
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help people connect the dots and at that
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point in time we saw shortly thereafter
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we saw in New York increased their
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numbers from seven thousand to ten
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thousand seven hundred deaths overnight
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we saw Pennsylvania subtract 250 deaths
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because the coroner’s pushed against
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them we saw the Italian department of
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health go back and look at their
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causation sequence in their deaths and
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phonic
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only really 12% of them stood up to the
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test of an actual sequence of causation
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in terms of death so I think at that
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point time
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the horse was out of the barn USA Today
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did a fact-checking thing I mean said
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well yeah this this doc from Minnesota
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he he evidently is right his numbers are
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there standing true first of all thank
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you for your courage and your commitment
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i I think some people’s reaction
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probably is because we all know that as
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it’s already been put out that all these
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doctors and nurses are putting himself
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on the line and so I think some people
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think maybe you’re I don’t know what
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they’re thinking you’re doing but
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they’re overreacting and you know people
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don’t wanna be confused with the facts
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which is one of the reasons we want to
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do this program what the as you look at
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the situation today with koban 19 how do
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you think about it how would you express
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the general public what the level of
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concern should because that I know you
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know some of the latest statistics as
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well are you know why if I guess the
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first question is why would we I
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understand I don’t think
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there’s gonna put something down for
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trying to make more money but obviously
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hospital administrators have to run that
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business and possibly actually in tough
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shape there’s no huge number of nurses
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and doctors being laid off because they
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set up side everything except cope in
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nineteen as you know but what why we why
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is this this rush in your mind to try to
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make these numbers as high as possible
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can you explain that to us because it
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doesn’t seem to make sense to most of us
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I think it’s a little bit like when we
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do our taxes and our accountant says
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this expense yeah that could have been
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deducted and they tell us what the
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scenario might be to make it deductible
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and some my accountant has frequently
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said Scott there’s this line on one side
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of it is aggressive on the other side is
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fraudulent we always want to be
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aggressive but not fraudulent I
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certainly remember the first time a
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hospital administrator person came to me
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and I was discharging a Medicare patient
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and I have listed the diagnosis codes
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for the discharge summary as diarrhea
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and dehydration and the major therapy
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that we provided during the
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hospitalization was intravenous fluids
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there was no need for an antibiotic but
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the hospital administrative clerk told
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me well if you switch those two
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diagnoses and put diet dehydration first
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above diarrhea we’ll get paid more and I
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said oh well down the road I remember
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discharging patients with congestive
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heart failure but if I also identified
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even though it didn’t take a lot of work
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in my apartment that they had a slightly
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low potassium if I put the slightly low
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potassium that argues for a greater
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index of severity and then the hospital
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can sometimes get more dollars they’re
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not being fraudulent they’re just trying
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to maximize revenues I think
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corporations all over the country do
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that so again I was just trying to be
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transparent I’m not trying to tell
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anybody that they shouldn’t trust their
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doctors or their hospital ministers I’m
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just saying let’s go into this with our
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eyes wide open well senator I can’t
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thank you enough for taking the time I
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know you’ve got to go make a vote and I
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just wanted people to hear directly from
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you and you know you can read about
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someone but you can feel your presence
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and your sincere love and caring for
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patients and all you’re trying to do is
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to keep us honest in this area so we
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don’t overreact
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it sounds like so that people don’t have
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excess fear I mean is that really your
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message is that what you’re trying to
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help Tony today I talk to patients every
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day I talk to constituents I mean on the
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one hand part of my life is in the
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trenches practicing primary care and
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then I come down to the Capitol where I
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see this partisan battle for power and
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and the best way to power sometimes is
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to keep people frightened and then tell
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them who to blame and after you’ve done
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enough of that then so to step up and
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raise your hand and say but follow me
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I’ll take care of you that’s sort of a
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typical formula in the world of politics
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we all sort of feel like we’re suspended
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between well it’s sort of like this it’s
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almost like we’ve got a time machine and
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I don’t know if I travel back in time to
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a Rod Serling Twilight Zone episode well
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if I traveled forward in time and I’m
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stuck in The Hunger Games and I’m in
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this if you will just topic futuristic
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place where government is slowly and
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insidiously encroaching in our lives
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it’s telling us what we’ll do and
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whether or not we can open for business
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and I think sometimes when these things
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happen we don’t recognize them at the
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time it’s is when we looked at them
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through the retrospective scope so I
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really think the crisis is pivoting
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there’s many people on this panelist on
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this panel if you will that have done a
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wonderful job of lay on important
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statistical information and you did as
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well but I would submit that we’re
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pivoting towards a time now where we
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have to ask ourselves our questions
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about who are we what is their country
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are we losing personal liberties if
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we’re going to use contact tracing what
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does that look like does that look like
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voluntary use of our form or is it going
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to be involuntary are there gonna be
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drones and swoop and watch us we need to
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be very careful because in the end when
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we’re all said and done we’re looking at
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a respiratory virus a single-stranded
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RNA virus we’ve dealt with these before
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and we know that 40 to 50 percent of
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people who get it may not even know they
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had it we know another 40 50 percent to
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get it will escape through it we know
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that we’re probably gonna at the end of
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the day and that somewhere between one
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out of a thousand patients dying from it
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I think we need to watch our personal
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our personal liberties but I also think
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we need to grow
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we need to empower patients to say
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you’re up to the task
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don’t turn over your care to the
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government or to a doctor get the second
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opinion feel good about it
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if you if you have a doctor that doesn’t
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want you being your own best champion
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damn it find another doctor because we
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should not be threatened by the fact
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that you want to be in charge of your
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own health and that you might want a
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second opinion and I think that’s what’s
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so inspiring about the panel that you
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put together here Tony is you’re not
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political you’re to say let’s have a
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conversation America because this is one
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of the most important conversations we
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might have in the next decade well
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senator Jenson dr. Jenson I really want
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to thank you and coming from both person
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and government and an MD your courage
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and you’re going to spring us floored is
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priceless and we thank you I know you’ve
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got to go to make your their votes there
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in the Senate so thank you for joining
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us and I look forward to following up
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with you
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you